tv Face the Nation CBS March 13, 2016 10:30am-11:30am EDT
dickerson: today on "face the nation" the 2016 presidential campaign comes unglued. violent protests at trump rallies our cbs battleground tracker poll shows movement in key primary states. protests at trump rallies which began in chicago. and kansas city last night marked shocking escalation in the angry political tone in america. >> don't hurt the person. don't hurt the person. i'm a nonviolent person, did you know that about me? >> dickerson: we'll talk to donald trump about the chaos what he's going to do about it. we'll hear from our cbs news reporter arrested trying to
and do or die or two candidates in home state primary contest tuesday. we'll talk to ohio governor john kasich about his tight race there with donald trump. and after his upset win over hillary clinton in michigan we'll talk to bernie sanders about his prospect going forward. that and more come up on "face the nation." captioning sponsored by cbs welcome to "face the nation" i'm john dickerson. five states hold primaries tuesday we have new cbs battleground tracker numbers. among republicans in florida, home state sector marco rubio is running third at 21% behind donald trump who is at the top with 44% and ted cruz who is in second in 24%. john kasich is far behind with 9% support but in his home state of ohio, john kasich is tied with donald trump at%.
marco rubio is far down at 5%. in illinois donald trump on top at 38% with ted cruz right behind him at 34. john kasich at 16, marco rubio at 11. the big story is the anger out on the campaign trail in chicago friday night, thousands of anti-trump protesters forced donald trump to cancel his rally then saturday in dayton, ohio, protester broke through barricade and rushed the stage at trump event stunning the candidate and crowd. in kansas city another round of chaos in the streets we begin with donald trump in chicago this morning. mr. trump, you've said that you don't incite any of this activity but several rallies you have said that protesters, you said about one i'd like to punch him in the face. another you suggested that it would be better if he was taken out on a stretcher. you suggested if one thought about throwing a tomato that your supporters should knock the crap out of him.
kind of behavior we're now seeing? >> well, let me just tell you first of all with all of the rallies i've had, i get more people than anybody as you know by a lot. thousands and thousands of people. 25,000 people almost getting be -- you haven't seen one person even injured at one of our rallies. the cases you're talking about the one guy was a bad dude, he was swinging, he was hitting people, he was a very bad guy and the police came in and they really were very effective. fangly some of the audience members had no choice but to be effective and i didn't mind that at all. but they would have been hurt. other with tomatoes i was told by secret service that two people in the audience we've heard that have tomatoes they're going to throw them at you. they have good arms that could do some damage, okay. i said to the people before my speech started, if you see anybody with tomatoes, you got to take them out, folks. got to take them out. i think everybody understands that. >> dickerson: you say no one was
video shows him being escorted out then a supporter cold cocked him, he was a, hurt, there was somebody hurt. he wasn't doing any damage when he was walking out. he was cold cocked. you would suggest in one of your rallies pay for legal fees, would you pay for legal fees for that gentleman? >> well, i'm going to review it. i understand -- i don't condone violence, i don't condone what happened to him and what he did because he got carried away and very unfortunate. but this kid was walking out and i understand he had certain finger up in the air as he's walking out. and this man became very angry. you know what, again, i don't condone violence but the kid shouldn't have had the finger up in the air, eitherf that's what he did. i'm going to take a look at the tape i'll let you know. >> dickerson: is that the threshold just wrong gesture and it's okay to clock him? >> well, i think that's a terrible gesture. we can say oh, it doesn't matter
you know it's interesting, these people are disrupters they're not protesters they're disrupters, professional disrupters in some cases that's all they do they stand up and disrupt and if nobody did that at a bernie rally, many come from bernie. i have tremendous young people also, we have a whole level of young people, i can't even is. but if they ever went to bernie rallies did the same thing, i want to tell you you would be so angry with me, nobody talks about it, but you would be so against. whole different standard when it comes to republican conservative versus liberal. if people went to their rallies and disrupted their rallies like my rallies are disrupted the press would particular up -- stick up for them make all sorts of excuses how terrible it is. so, we have two standards in this country, it's very unfortunate. the press is extremely dishonest. >> dickerson: when you talk about these protesters you said these are barred, bad people we're going to take our country
these people do nothing. who are "these people" in that case? >> well, i see people in the audience that i don't think they have great future. i think they're disrupters, they are not in love with our country. i think they protest and disrupt, that's what they do. i don't know if they do it for a living, i don't know if they get paid for doing it. but they are not good people and they are certainly not good for our country and the people that come to my rallies these are extraordinary people. these are great people. these are people that are really disenfranchised in many cases. noww that being said, we are very successful people, we have smartest, we have the best educated, we have people that aren't educated as well. if you look at the polls coming out of all these states that i've won, which is most of them, if you look at the polls coming out i lead with hispanics, i lead with women, i lead with very well educated. i lead in all different categories. very proudly i lead with evangelical.
i lead in every category. so, i have everybody. we really do have a young crowd. remember this, if they went to hillary rally, although nobody cares too much about hillary rallies because there's no fervor there. if they went to bernie rally they would say what a terrible thing. they disrupt me from talking. i do the best i can with it. and by the way, you've heard me say it, don't hurt them. i'm constantly saying to the police, don't hurt them, don't hurt them. i don't condone violence. some of these people are violent. >> dickerson: let me ask you policy question at the debate you talked about -- something i frankly use i shouldn't be allowed to use it when you talk about the bankruptcy laws, talked how you took advantage of them when you and i talked about your taxes you say try to pay as little as possible. if you are president, why would anybody follow the laws that you put in place if they knew you were taking advantage of those laws when you were in the private sector? >> because i know the game
i've been on the other side. i built one of the greatest companies. i did filing which shows one of the great companies great assets, very little debt, tremendous cash flow, some of the greatest assets in the world. but let me just tell you, i use the bankruptcy laws just like other very successful people. i won't use their names, pie name ten people, biggest people in all of business, we do it -- the game we play. we use the laws of the land. that's the way we play the game. wait a minute. as far as the visas are concerned i'm in the doing anything wrong, i think those visas shouldn't be allowed. but they are allowed. they are part of the fabric of what you do. so, i'll use it, i'm a businessman. now that i've turned politician, i hate to say that almost about myself, but now that i'm running for office, i know the game better than anybody. i'm the one that can fix all of this stuff. when you say talk -- i never went corrupt, you -- bankrupt, you understand i never went bankrupt you take look at the business leaders, every once in
many different companies and very few i will take advantage of frankly by using the laws of the land. as every other major business person does. >> dickerson: that's what i want to ask about the playing of the game. when you were with ben carson who endorsed you this week you said he was pathological then both of you said, well, that was just politics. so, you're saying it's just the game. but if the most serious things you say are just politics, it's just the game, then why isn't everything you're saying just a game not politics totally open to revision? >> well, that is politics. i say bad things about people. they say bad things about me. actually ben wrote it in his book. i just read sections of his book. i read what ben wrote. i'm not going to make up anything. i could tell you about john kasich he's done a terrible job in ohio people think he's done good j. he's losing his businesses. real estate taxes have gone through the roof, he talks about not raising taxes, the real
through the roof, he approved nafta now he's voting for ppp which is going to be worse than nafta. going to take all the car industry, everything else out. his coal industry is dead. you know, give me a break. you tell me about how goodies doing, he's doing terrible job for ohio. >> dickerson: we're out of time, mr. trump. thanks so much. >> thank you. dickerson: among those arrested friday night at the reporter so pan who covers donald trump for the network he spoke to cbs news producer charlie brooks. >> it was tense right from the start. there were protesters, hundreds of them. many scuffles broke out but nothing too serious at that point.
there was an announcement. that donald trump was concerned about security and postponing the rally there was total pandemonium inside the arena. lots of cursing, people pushing and shoving on both sides. both supporters and protesters. eventually i went outside. i saw a group of police officers running towards an area of protesters. i had my camera, i jet along with them through this area. i get to this crowd there's a man being arrested. his head is bloodied on the ground. and i'm shooting, this the protesters at this point had shut down the street. the police officers are saying -- another scuffle bricks out i'm shooting this scuffle. and before i knew it, a police officer, at least one police officer maybe multiple pulled me down from the back of my hoodie
then police officer put his boot to my neck and cuffed me. i am continuously identifying myself as press, i said i have credentials. but they're not listening to me. eventually they put me in to the back of this police van along with the man that was bloodied and another gentleman. and it's pitch black, then i was in handcuffs for maybe an hour before policeman took me to the station, processed me, cuff me again at the station. and where the police officers told me i was being charged with resisting arrest. >> you've been covering this campaign for awhile. have you seen tensions build? how would you characterize the mood in these events over last couple of weeks or month? >> there have been protests going on at donald trump rallies for months and months and months. this is nothing new. however there has been a recent uptick i ternly never seen anything like last night.
there had been other groups of coordinated protests at pep rallies but nothing as massive as what i saw last night. >> do you that have any impressions of the sort of people that were making up the bulk of the protesters? >> well, according to people i talked to, that was one of the organizers, told me there were countless groups, there was coordinated effort going back weeks as soon as they heard that donald trump was coming here. person i talked to last night said he couldn't tell me how many were involved because there were so many. unclear how many were there but certainly whole bunch of different, including black lives matter, vulgar chants in mum tim languages. diverse group. i wile say most were young. injured he is back on the campaign trail with donald trump today. we now want to turn to ohio governor john kasich who joins us from cleveland. governor, i want to start with something you said about donald trump you said there's no place for a national leader to prey on
our country. how exactly is he preying an fears? >> well, he's done a lot of name calling, he's created a very toxic atmosphere where he's -- look, start with immigration, do you want to start with the things that he has said about muslims. where does it end? it's putting one group against atmosphere i'm not going to tell i in his rally some of these he create problems. that happens in all volatile situations. but, you know, john, look, america is greatest strength is its people. and our greatest strength in people is when we're unified. there's no doubt that he's run this divisive campaign it's concerning to me. at the end of the day he's not going to be the nominee. we're going to learn from this. and i'm going to win ohio on tuesday, we'll be competing all across the country and it's going to be a new day, just wait and see. >> dickerson: one of the things
the voters are just angry he's not preying on fears this is just the nature anger that's out there. talk about that line a little bit, difference between voters who are angry and then the politicians who poke at that anger. >> well, look, i think first of all there are people that are upset. they're worried about their jobs and their wages, which haven't gone up. they put their money in the bank get no interest their kids are still living in the home after a college degree. these are real concerns. i said it in the first debate that he was tapping in to something out there, the reason i understand it is because i grew up in that environment as a kid. but the way you get those voters is to tell them how you can fix things. that's why i always talk about the strength of my record. whether it was in washington, help can this economy to tray off or whether it's been in ohio with the creation of over 400,000 new jobs here. i also think you can walk into a room, john, of a hundred 50e78 you can put them in really bad
you can get them to be hopeful. i notice this everywhere i go because when i show up i talk about the way we can fix things. how people need to work together and don't wait for somebody tolls show up, begin to change the world in the world in which you live. and the hopefulness of it i think works. frankly, since i've been so positive it must be contagious because last debate was sweet, right? >> dickerson: everybody behaved themselves. at that last debate when everybody was talking about trade it seems like republican party trade is now a bad word. you voted for nafta, donald trump trying to use that against you. who is the promoter of free trade now in the republican party? >> well, sort of interesting, john, because i've always been a fair trader and a free trader at the same time. in 2001 i helped the steel companies to get 201 trade restraint so they could consolidate and be stronger. i've been saying for a long time that we need to have an
cheat we shut their products down. but that doesn't take away from the fact that we have to be involved in the global market because one out of every five workers are connected to it. 38 million americans have jobs that are connected to trade. we do want to have free trade but want to have fair trade and expedited process to say that when you're cheatings, we're going to take action against you that would include manipulation of currency. >> dickerson: politics, you said you're going to win ohio. marco rubio said his voters should vote for you in ohio are you saying your voters should vote for him in florida? >> john, it's really hard to somebody else. i'm not campaigning in florida, my focus has been in this state. and in illinois. and look, at the end, this is not like stop somebody this is about my telling people the way the country ought to be run. the experience that i've had. and why i've had success. i can give them the hope that we actually can pull the country
americans before republicans and democrats. and solve our most vehicles can conservative principles. republicans. that's actually an argument people are using against donald trump, some of your rifles seem to be wobbley whether they're going to stick with that pledge and support him, where are you on that? >> well, i'd like to support the nominee. nominee. that's just not going to happen. but i said at the last debate he makes it difficult. we'll see how this goes. i mean, he's got to have -- begin to lift people stop dividing people and the toxic environment must end. this is not making us proud. think of the videos that have been shown all over the world of people slugging it out at campaign rally. there are people around the world that are shaking their heads who are saying, what the heck is happened to america? we'll be fine. the people are smart, they're going to make the right decision in my opinion. >> dickerson: all right, john kasich that will have to be the last word.
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>> dickerson: now to the democratic race. the cbs battleground has hillary clinton up almost 30 points over bernie sanders in florida. compared to senator sanders at 43%. illinois shows much tighter race, senator sanders is up two points over secretary clinton's 48 and 46. we go now to bernie sanders who is in st. louis, this morning, good morning, senator. donald trump says he might start rallies. >> well, you know, donald trump has been an incredibly divisive figure day after day, his rhetoric is incite can violence. we have seen videos of some of his supporters responding to that rhetoric by kicking people, by sucker punching them.
leveled against his own campaign manager for assaulting a female reporter. so, there's a lot of this fumes about violence coming from trumps campaign, i very much hope that he understands that in democracy people should be allowed to go to anybody's rally peacefully demonstrate without fear of being beaten up. i hope he tones it down. this is not good for the country. >> dickerson: do you encourage some of your protesters, some of the protesters at some of your -- supporters i should say are going to these rallies, would you encourage them to keep doing that? >> no, not to disrupt rallies. trump, i won't shock you john by telling that you donald trump liza whole lot. he calls me a communist, that's a lie. to suggest that our campaign is telling people to disrupt his campaign is a lie. we don't. we have millions of supporters and some of them will do what they do. but our campaign has never, not
disrupt mr. trump's rallies are or anybody else's. >> dickerson: in contest with hillary clinton she has said that she was way out in front on health care back in 1993 and she wonders where you were on that issue back then. what's your response? >> well, i think there's a video, a photograph or something of me right by her side. i have always said that hillary clinton did very, very good job as first lady. she kind of broke the mold as to what a first lady should be doing. but to criticize me on health care is not quite fair because i have been a leader in congress from day one. in the fight for universal health care to make certain that in united states we join the rest of the industrialized world, guaranteed health care to all people. affordable care act i worked with congressman on major initiative. put $12 billion in the community health centers so that millions
health care. i have led the effort to take on the greed and unconscionable pricing of the drug companies who are ripping us off, charging us the highest prices in the world such that millions of americans can't afford medicine that they need. i don't have to defend myself to anybody about the role i have played in health care. i do believe that we should move to medicare for all health care system which finally says that health care is a right, to all people in our country something which differentiates me. >> dickerson: talk about politics a little bit here. on these election day you had big surprise win in michigan, real momentum booster at the end of the day hillary clinton got more delegates that happened on almost every election day. if that keeps hanking she's going to get the nomination. >> well, john to, everybody's surprise, we began this
poles about 70 points behind hillary clinton. since then we have won nine states, eight of them by very large margins. one in michigan was very tight. last week all of the pollsters predicted that we would lose michigan by 15 to,, 25 points. well, we ended up winning. i think we have a lot of momentum in illinois. in ohio, in missouri. i think we'll do better than people think in north carolina. and florida. we're looking for ward to very good tuesday and winning the democratic nomination. >> dickerson: we'll talk about it after those rules. thanks for being with us. we'll be right back. bout success, what does it look like? is it becoming a better professor by being a more adventurous student? is it one day giving your daughter the opportunity she deserves? is it finally witnessing all
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>> dickerson: welcome back. joining us now is cbs news director of election, anthony salvanto.
we're going to try to map out the next week. let's start first, one thing i found interesting in the poll was john kasich challenging trump in ohio doing much better than rubio in his home state of florida, why is that? >> one is home state advantage one may be disadvantage. in ohio say economy is good and kasich has sky high approval ratings as governor. that's an advantage. but comparably in florida rubio's approval rating as a senator are mixed. even among republicans he's got lower numbers than rest of the
be president and that's essentially the difference. >> dickerson: all right. let's talk about ohio and florida. big winner take all states next week. let's go through some of the scenarios here. it seems like for the moment given where donald trump has been the question is, is he going to get enough delegates to get the nomination or will he go to the convention with maybe a lead in the delegates but have been stopped. let's walk through some of the scenarios. first, in ohio and florida let's say trump wins both, what's next? >> i think he becomes all he would have to do from there with the delegate lead in hand coming out of tuesday is keep winning and keep winning delegates. at the same pace at which he has been. i think the map ahead actually favors him in his ability to do that because you look at the states coming up and they have more of the kind of voters that donald trump has already been winning you get your blue collar republicans. you've got your suburban republicans, he's been doing
of the kind of voters in the kind of areas that ted cruz has been winning. we're headed through the northeast. we're headed through the west. pennsylvania, new york, et cetera. that should advantage trump in being able to keep that pace. >> dickerson: if he wins those two states it will suggest all these attacks against him that they're just not working and so they be unlikely to suddenly work in the remaining states. let's now look at beginning of glimmers of hope which to say that trump loses one of those two states. what does it look like then if he only wins one of those? >> i think that is a glimmer of hope for folks trying to catch him. to. if he loses to kasich in ohio, that is very competitive race be seen -- that's a home state win for kasich but where else does he go. kasich still trailing him in delegates. rubio happens to catch him in florida, same thing.
in delegates probably will be coming out of the tuesday. other thing that the rules going forward from these states actually advantage the winner to even greater degree than they already have. they hand out more winner take all delegates, even by region or district and so the difference between the leading candidate and the trailing candidates actually historically tends to open up. >> dickerson: so in that case, if trump only won one of those, he would have to do a little bit better than he's doing to get the magic number? >> he'd have to pick up the pace a little bit. have to pick up the pace, just a little bit. because he coop that lead. now, if he does and heads into places like pennsylvania like new york those other states then tries to build on that lead, he wouldn't get there quickly, it might go deep into may but he would still be on a trajectory to get there. >> dickerson: quickly he loses both what happens then? >> he loses both, that's a lot
to at the convention i think. there is at least one advantage out of this. voters do tend to try to wrap things up as we get deep into the process, do tend to try to consolidate. but if he loses both then some of that luster of being a winner certainly comes off. he certainly has tougher road ahead because, let's not forget other states voting, north carolina, the missouri, if ted cruz were touchier repick a couple of those, now cruz could make up some of the difference. >> dickerson: cruz is closest to him at the delegates. >> so let's not forget those, they have more in total just that we're focusing on ohio and florida, rightly because they're the big winner take all prizes but there's lot more delegates out there. watch for cruz to try and at least cut in to that trump lead and if trump does happen to drop both ohio and florida now we get competitive. now we could this thing go deep
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editor "time" magazine. peggy, what do we make of -- [ laughter ] lot to go here. what do you make of the rallies in the last couple of days and how much has donald trump contributed or not contributed to this at all. >> seeing the past few days, especially last night in chicago, the disruption, the yelling, the pushing, the violence surrounding the donald trump rally and inside, even though he wasn't there he cancelled he said for safety reasons. i think there are two big reasons this is happening and one victim group ha hasn't been mentioned. two reasons it's happening, trump is cavalier and careless in his references to punch him in the nose. i wish i could punch him in the nose. if you punch him in the nose i'll pay your bills. that's been. that's immature.
is always a country when it's gathered and political passions can start throwing punches. that's the first part. second part is, there are anti-trump groups that are opportunistically moving on the fact that he's given them this opening with his wild statements. they are coming in. they're causing their own havoc and pushing people around. that's not good. we always have to remember, this is america, you have a right to come together. you have right to have rally, right to free speech to gather. it zooms to me a forgotten victim group here is the peaceful people who want to go see donald trump and get him unfiltered get a sense of who he vote for. they must have been frightened last night. they saw people pushing and tearing plaque cards out of each other's hands, it's auto bad.
rallies, they are curious want to get a look. >> dickerson: the "washington post" has a question, has donald trump lit a fire that now can't be contained. what is your sense of that? >> containment not word that anyone would use to describe this election so far i don't think we should start expecting. but i don't think any of us know watching that tape offer the weekend, all of the tapes, seems to be new one every couple of hours, reminded of we all live in different places now. it's odd that we're now deciding to come together at trump rallies. that seems like maybe not the best place. that the country needed nor 20 years that's what's happening. two basically frightened groups of people. the trump supporters are scared of losing their livelihood and not really familiar yet, fully maybe owning what we call multi-raral society. they're concerned about the second amendment.
nonwhite come from different part of the country and are concerned about how will the rhetoric of donald trump is spewing help themselves and their kids assimilate. both sets of real genuine fears. they are being met at these rallies, that is a scary combination. >> dickerson: a volatile pace. donald trump suggested there may be new meeting place for these two groups at the bernie sanders' rallies. going to send over to -- >> that was, i thought maybe we'd be deescalation, i'm naive, obviously. i didn't read the tweet first i got e-mail from a friend of mine in egypt who told me about the tweet, be careful bernie or my supporters will to go your rallies. and my friend from egypt set, welcome to the middle east. because this is the way politics is done in other parts of the world. we don't like the way politics gangs of their supporters to other people's rallies to break them up and make violence.
these things are going to escalate. people are meeting at these rallies, someone is going to get seriously hurt and among other things we're not modeling good behavior for the rest of the world that looks to america for political maturity. >> as peggy might put it that would be bad. gone to number of bernie sanders' rallies they are pretty peaceful affairs like eagles concert where everybody knows the words. and they show up ready to sing. that's a great analogy as well they're bringing lot of these little kids because these are pretty laid back affairs. suddenly you have them clashing with fired up trump supporters. that could be -- >> dickerson: may be losing ourselves in the metaphor. jeffrey mentioned decays lakes which we had seen earlier in the week there was debate that looked like -- everybody john kasich mentioned thought they
so nice and civil. what did you make that have? >> well, the calm before the storm, among some of the candidates together they could not continue down the road that previous debate had been just out of control. but then they go back to their separate campaign events people say things they shouldn't say. trump followed that with that remarkable line about islam hates us which was within 24 hours of the debate. that was astonishingly incendiary reckless thing to say, add that we're going to need someone lot more sensitive to that kind of way of speaking as leader whether you're nominated or not. reminder that some republicans according to -- do expect prudent talk about religion they prefer it. it's just going to be something that we have to live with i think with trump until he decides, whatever reason to change the way he's campaigning. >> two quick points, there is regret, i think on the part of marco rubio that he accelerated
the other thought i was having last couple of days is that, wondering who is the senior figure, who could straddle all -- is it colin powell who needs to come out simply say, you know, what we simply cannot talk about, for instance, is islam, the way we're talking about it in this campaign because this is dangerous for the united states. and i don't know who that figure or group of figures is, but there's kind of need for it at this point. >> dickerson: i don't know if that person exists, peggy, because that person would be in the establishment, or be -- that immediately makes them suspect to all of the people who are creating the energy in the party. >> it would have to be a person of grave respect to the left, right and middle would listen to knowing they weren't pursuing an agenda but trying to look out for america. we've torn so many people institutions down in past few decade i'm not sure who that would be. let me throw question to you, mike, some times when trump says
or whatever exactly it is that he said. islam hates us. does he know what he's saying? i mean, he could say, look, there is a portion of radical jihaddist growing islam which has appealed to young people which is violent they appear to hate us, you can't just say islam hates us. so imprecise i think he's intelligent many doesn't he say it the right way? >> the question you've asked in your column, what does he really think. ben carson when he endorsed trump something i don't think all of us would have predicted there are two donald trumps, no, there are about 22. or maybe 200. right after yes, there are two trumps there seem to be two trumps about the question of
he's such a salesman. he's talking now about unifying the party. i think he's done so much damage with his rhetoric no matter how much vodka you put on the dias going to be hard to unify the party around him as he continues to -- >> i think it's interesting that marco rubio starting to say that the things that trump had said are making it more difficult for him to continue -- >> right at the glenn that he will support the nominee. the problem for him is, what does that mean if you don't support republican nominee that means you support bernie sanders or hillary clinton or sit it out what does that mean for all of your republican senate and house candidates and everybody down the ballot in november. >> dickerson: that sense of unpredictability. you mentioned marco rubio, let's watch, actually, a moment of anguish of marco rubio talking about this. >> i mean, i already talked about the fact hillary clinton would be terrible for this country.
asking me that question, i still at this moment continue to intend to support the republican nominee. but getting harder ever day. >> harder ever day. >> that was real moment. that was a real -- >> dickerson: whether he'll support donald trump. >> that seemed like a real moment of -- he's ashen. real moment of anguish. and i would based on that i'm led to believe that he could not in good conscious support donald trump. not do a chris christie. >> they're all thinking about november and their v but thinking about their own reputations beyond november. >> like to think that they're -- also like to think it's -- their own souls in america. >> they're trying to figure out what is the best thing to do here. i thought marco rubio looked shocked by history. sort of ashen indeed, and just surprised at how things are turning out. >> we're all surprised been
>> dickerson: let's switch to democratic history. nancy, what happened in mr. mesh, how big a deal that sanders beat clinton? >> put a dent in her inevitability and shift gears starting to using on the general election. have to spend more money than she probably wanted to in these primary states. it showed that the issue of trade is bigger than probably even the clinton campaign thought it was. in a manufacturing state like michigan and that is really a centerpiece of the bernie sanders campaign that free trade is killing jobs. she also focused in michigan as she has in other states in boosting african american turn out and it's true she did very well among african americans but no, sir well where she wins like 09% of african americans, there aren't enough african americans in the state like michigan to put her over the top. >> she lost 30% of african americans in michigan which is a danger point number for her particularly as democratic races
the west coast because nonwhite populations are much smaller there. nancy mentioned these states are going to be more friendly to more liberal candidate. your poll fascinating, sappedders is ahead in her home state. >> how people are going to win their home states. >> the polls had her 20 up in michigan still lost. >> you also made the point that sanders lives off the land. he can go and go and go. this is not a high cost. >> we may have gotten to the point this week that democratic race is beginning to elongate. >> is she really, however, i'm curious, is mrs. clinton really scared right now or is this just a pain in the neck that she's going to have to play out? is she scared? >> i can't speak to her state of mind. but she's clearly insider in
and when you have trump and sanders threatening -- >> don't forget about her experience. >> she must be getting sick of the -- >> more frustrated than scared. you're right. she said this week i've gone all the way to the end before so i can do it again but it's clearly not the way that she would hope that this would -- >> dickerson: not message of joy. thanks to all of you. jeffrey will stay with us to talk about his interview with president obama so please stay
>> dickerson: we're back with jeffrey goldberg of of "the atlantic"
who has cover story in this month's magazine, amazing piece. i want to start with -- talking about president obama and foreign policy legacy. the red line on syria is considered by some people even senior people in his own administration, a big mistake. he sees it as the opposite. >> right. he sees it as very proud moment. because he didn't do the thing that everybody in the establishment all of our allies wanted to do which was attack syria, to punish for crewing chemical weapons. he sees syria as the biggest
it's a moment when he now tells himself and tells me that he's proud that have because he resisted all of the people pushing him to go have war with syria. >> dickerson: does he -- what about having said it out loud does he at acknowledge that that maybe wasn't such a great idea because ultimately -- >> he didn't -- he doesn't regret or didn't say that he regrets it he thought it was appropriate brush back pitch, what i think he's learned don't make these kind of statements unless you're going to carry it through. that's was the big says lest son i think for him. >> dickerson: also talk about free riders. we hear this term or i hear this term lot explain iowa free riders are that concept. >> flee riders are american allies, mainly europe and middle east, who expect america to do everything for them. don't pay enough of their own share of defense and don't defend themselves and just expecting america to do everything. president obama has, like a lot
resentmentment and he talks about arab states wanting to bring america into all of their wars against iranian opposition and sort much says, why do we traditionally americans have looked at europe said, you guys defense. it's a very american position he's taking, by the way, on this question. >> dickerson: in the gulf states you're saying what they're saying is, would you deal with iran for us, take care of it for us? >> right. there's some this feeling they want us to be their muscle. we're having a fight in yemen and syria, you're the big guy. you just deal with it for us we'll hold your coat and you go fight. i think president obama is a guy who is not looking for new fights for america and the world. >> dickerson: is that connected to another phrase, i feel like we're going through the phrases of the obama foreign policy but leading from behind. >> which sun fair description of what he was trying to do.
he said, you know what, we'll do this, you meaning britain and france this is your back yard you got to do all the clean up. we have the capability of bombing everything we need to bomb but you -- he told me, this is matter some of controversy he told me he doesn't think that britain and france did enough in the follow up. and has some disappointment about that. and of course they don't like to hear that, but it's probably true. >> dickerson: isn't that the argument for why the u.s. has to do everything because you can't leave it to somebody else? >> i think president obama trying to train our allies in essence to grow up a little bit and take a little bit more responsibility. especially for problems that are in their neighborhoods. that we can't do everything any more. >> dickerson: that how he can say that the lesson of libya is that you got to make sure there's something in place after the military action, because that seems shocking because i thought that was the lesson of iraq. >> well, the libya was his iraq in some ways which is why he so hesitant to go further in to syria.
everything right, he lined everything up, am lice thought they would do x, y and z. he told me, it didn't work, that's of it didn't work. he's learned a lesson which is like don't get involved in these kind of problems. >> dickerson: we have a minute left. you've interviewed him so many times over course of so long, just give me your sense of what it was like to interview him here, he's looking towards the exits, what is his state of mind? >> i've been think iing about. this i was doing sees series of interviews last four months, we're talking about limits of liberal interventionism, we're talking about the amorphous quality, i'm trying to have these serious, mature conversations we're having them. then you look at what people are talking about in the primary campaign about foreign policy. and e-mails and ben good 'and build a wall and bigger wall and it's going to get china to do x,
it's about islam. i wonder if he at this point sitting there alone laughing at these candidates saying, you have idea what it's like to try to manage the world. >> dickerson: jeffrey, thanks so much. >> thank you. dickerson: we'll be right back. sure am. my staff could use your help staying in touch with customers. at&t can help you stay connected. am i seeing double? no ma'am. our at&t 'buy one get one free' makes it easier for your staff to send appointment reminders to your customers... ...and share promotions on social media? you know it! now i'm seeing dollar signs. you should probably get your eyes checked. good one babe. optometry humor. right now get up to $650 in credits to help you switch to
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